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Some one posted this today on facebook: Drew Brees. The ALL TIME single season passing yardage leader. 5,000+ yards in 15 games. 70%+ completion ration. 40+ touchdowns. LEAGUE MVP. I guess the NFL needs to require a minimum number of rushing attempts per game.... Dean_Washington
 Dean -- Washington Redskins "If you don't know where you're going, you might end up somewhere else." - Toby Keith
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That is a nice manipulation of statistics.
Except nobody ever complained about passing yards, completion percentage or TDs.
And Aaron Rodgers is the NFL MVP, not Brees.
But, New Orleans of the NFL passes the ball 61% of the time and runs 39% which is the NFL high probably.
The Jags in our league pass 76% and run 24%.
Show me the NFL team who does that successfully and I will never bring it up again. In the NFL where we have real people with brains and the ability to adjust on the fly, that sort of offense would never work.
In the PNFL, where we are dealing with a simulation, it works and its gaming the system. Teams could pass 100% of the time and still not stop it. And with your logic, that would be okay.
2016 SB XIX Champions
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Lee-Chargers wrote:That is a nice manipulation of statistics.
Show me the NFL team who does that successfully and I will never bring it up again. In the NFL where we have real people with brains and the ability to adjust on the fly, that sort of offense would never work.
In the PNFL, where we are dealing with a simulation, it works and its gaming the system. Teams could pass 100% of the time and still not stop it. And with your logic, that would be okay.
Again, that's completely unrelated to the problem. The fact that teams can't switch strategies mid game does nothing to favor either run or pass. Yes, if you see a team has holes in their pass defense you can pass 99% of the time and do very well. By the same logic however, when a team has problems stopping the run you can do the same running the ball (See what NE did to BUF the last two weeks of the season despite being at a huge talent disadvantage). If the payoff between run and pass is well balanced, we'll get balanced season statistics. I also think running, particularly on 1st down, is overvalued in the NFL, so I'd probably be more pass-happy than the Saints even if the incentives were the same as in the NFL. That said, there's still too much passing in the PNFL even relative to the pass-happy NFL. The reason is simple: the payoff for passing is too high and needs to be reduced.
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I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the problem.
Why do you think its not a problem that you unrealistically pass 76% of the time?
And Buffalo giving up a lot of running yards the final 2 weeks when he had clinched the 1 seed is meaningless. I am going to bet he spent zero time preparing for a non playoff team.
I agree, the payoff for passing in the PNFL is too great. That is why passing 100% is possible and unrealistic. I just believe its so much easier to fix the problem in the profile. I do not believe altering attributes and plays is the answer. Especially when nobody can guarantee any of these changes will fix the problem.
You see, for me the problem is not yardage, TDs, scoring, comp %, QB rating, none of that is the problem for me. The problem is unrealistic play selection by the teams. The NFL high end passing the past decade is 60%. I think we as a league should be damn close to that. I am sorry, I will never believe 76% is normal or okay.
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I don't see how I could be any clearer about this: I think the passing game is a significant problem. I've supported all kinds of big changes to reduce its effectiveness relative to running. I've supported in particular some changes that really hurt my team (reducing WR stats, for example). So yes, the passing game is a problem and I've said that all along. Would you please acknowledge that you've read this and understand I've been very active in terms of supporting changes to get teams to run the ball more (even if it isn't the kind of changes that you prefer).
Where we seem to disagree is about whether it is morally wrong for me to pass 76% of the time right, given the current rules of the game. I can't possibly see why it would be. I haven't broken any rules nor have I clearly broken the spirit of any rules in passing 76% of the time. There are absolutely no rules in place intended to set a minimum % of runs, so it's not like I'm exploiting a loophole. I can get that you find my strategies distasteful. That's fine and I have no problem with you finding it distasteful or trying to legislate your tastes. What's really not fair is for you to tell me that what I'm doing is not OK (ie: once again hinting that you think it is morally wrong) when there are no rules against it or even intended to stop it.
Now, contrary to what you might think, I really like realism. Actually, I love it and I've always gravitated towards realistic games. I love realism because it makes games more immersive because it feels like the real thing. I get that it's immersion-breaking when you see that I pass the ball way more often than NFL teams do. That's an issue for me too. I want realistic stats.
But for me realism isn't the stats, its the decision-making process. What I like most about this game is not looking at the stats after the fact, but making decisions like an NFL coach would and having a realistic connection between those decisions and the outcome. Stats are only a very indirect and flawed way of measuring how realistic the game is. The game isn't the stats, the game is the causal connection between the strategies players choose and the outcomes (the stats). You're not really making the game realistic by forcing players to run X% of the time. In a sense, you'll be making the run/pass ratio and aggregate pasisng/rushing stats more realistic. But you'll also be making the game less realistic in the sense that no reasonable coach would run that much given those payoffs. The fun of this game is that you get to face the same kinds of decisions as an NFL head coach and if any NFL head coach faced the same payoffs as I do (in terms of passing and running), they too would pass 76% of the time.
So I get that you want to make it illegal to run less than a certain % of the time, but that doesn't fix the problem for me. For me the root problem is that the payoff for passing is too high and the payoff for running is too low. The fact that people run too little and pass too much is just a symptom of that problem. Forcing people to run more doesn't fix that problem at all.
I also get that it is going to take a lot of work to fix the payoffs by changing player attributes. It's very easy to make passing less effective and running more effective. What's hard is fine tuning things and avoiding unintended consequences. But it's exactly that kind of hard work that got us where we are in terms of realism and it's exactly that kind of work that we need to keep improving things. I'm obsessive about these sorts of things so I wouldn't mind at volunteering to run some of the sims so that we can nail down exactly what types of changes work best.
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We disagree on how to achieve that goal. Just because the reward of passing is too high and reward for running too low, does not mean we should all pass 100% of the time. Yes there are no rules for passing 100% and to date, nobody is passing 100%.
But, why not?
There is no rule so lets do it.
That is my point. I would like to see the league be as NFL-like as possible and that means to me, a roughly 60-40 ratio either way. The reason NFL teams are always in that range is because if they passed 80% or ran 80% it would never work.
So, just because fbpro is flawed does not make it right.
I still say, even if the runs are weak at this time, we should all be bound by a certain percentage. We can work on the fix but to say, work on the fix and let us all pass 80-100% of the time, is not NFL-like.
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Lee-Chargers wrote:[color=indigo][b]We disagree on how to achieve that goal. Just because the reward of passing is too high and reward for running too low, does not mean we should all pass 100% of the time. Yes there are no rules for passing 100% and to date, nobody is passing 100%.
But, why not?
Passing 100% the time every game is not the best strategy. For one thing, there are still some situations in which running is a very good option. Even in my most aggressive passing gameplans I will still run in the red zone because I don't have the room to stretch things out in the passing game. Running in short yardage situations is also effective. Another reason to run is that it's quite possible to catch teams overcompensating vs. the pass. Lee-Chargers wrote:That is my point. I would like to see the league be as NFL-like as possible and that means to me, a roughly 60-40 ratio either way. The reason NFL teams are always in that range is because if they passed 80% or ran 80% it would never work. So would I. Changing the payoffs does this by addressing the root problem and gets us the highest level of realism. Lee-Chargers wrote:So, just because fbpro is flawed does not make it right. This is a game. If it's not in the rules and it isn't bad behavior outside of the context of the game it isn't wrong. It's that simple. So I'd like to see you stop insinuating that I'm doing anything wrong here. It's 100% within the rules, the spirit of the rules and I'm not deceiving anyone, taking advantage of anyone or doing anything that would be wrong outside of the context of the game. Lee-Chargers wrote:I still say, even if the runs are weak at this time, we should all be bound by a certain percentage. We can work on the fix but to say, work on the fix and let us all pass 80-100% of the time, is not NFL-like. As I've already pointed out, a mandate doesn't make things more realistic overall. It just makes the stats look more realistic, but it involves forcing everyone into strategies that no NFL coach would use given the payoffs. It involves creating a situation where everyone will tend to use the same strategy (running the bare minimum amount).
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My logic? I showed my logic in week 15 game vs. Buffalo. I'll be showing more it this coming season running a balanced offense. The Redskins don't pass 76 percent of the time. When other coaches see that balance works they will follow. As for Jacksonville passing a lot, if you think he's going to pass 76% of the time aginst do that much better job containing his passing game and make him run the ball more often. Dean_Washington
Dean -- Washington Redskins "If you don't know where you're going, you might end up somewhere else." - Toby Keith
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Dean, do you really think Buffalo prepared for you?
You need to get over yourself for one game. You talk as if you found the secret to fbpro and we should expect a 14-2 next season.
And, in the NFL, containing a 76% passing attack is possible. In fbpro, its not. The game is very flawed and some plays will always work. It's not like the other coaches are stupid and do not try to contain passing. For all the genius of yourself and Eric, you guys don't stop anyone on defense either. That's the game flaw.
But for all the talk, nobody has yet said why its okay to pass 76% of the time when it never happens in the NFL. The trend of this league is we are heading for Arena League just because you refuse to be balanced since the runs are not good enough to suit you. I suppose when we alter the attributes and are only completing at 65% and running at 6-7yds per clip, teams will be balanced.
We just have a fundamental difference in what we want our reality to be.
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Lee-Chargers wrote:Dean, do you really think Buffalo prepared for you? You need to get over yourself for one game. You talk as if you found the secret to fbpro and we should expect a 14-2 next season. Lee, you don't have to think that Dean's a genius to give a bit of credit where it's due. Dean played even with Buffalo for two games despite a vastly inferior roster against the best owner in the league. I'll bet if you ask Rich he'll tell you that his record when not gameplanning is still very good (Rich, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Lee-Chargers wrote:And, in the NFL, containing a 76% passing attack is possible. In fbpro, its not. The game is very flawed and some plays will always work. It's not like the other coaches are stupid and do not try to contain passing. For all the genius of yourself and Eric, you guys don't stop anyone on defense either. That's the game flaw. Making statements like this without actually looking at the facts is not reasonable. Only four NFL teams would rank better in the most important stat of all, points per game. My team has allowed 5.7 yards per attempt, which would be tied for best in the NFL with the Pittsburgh Steelers. Despite the challenges of creating interceptions in FBPro, I still have a better % of passes intercepted than many NFL teams. I also have a ton of sacks. So no, I've done quite well in terms of stopping people. Not quite as well as Buffalo, but very well. Lee-Chargers wrote:But for all the talk, nobody has yet said why its okay to pass 76% of the time when it never happens in the NFL. The trend of this league is we are heading for Arena League just because you refuse to be balanced since the runs are not good enough to suit you. I suppose when we alter the attributes and are only completing at 65% and running at 6-7yds per clip, teams will be balanced. I think I've been very clear on this. There's nothing wrong with passing 76% of the the time because: A) It's perfectly realistic behavior given the incentives. Any decent NFL coach would do the same thing when facing these payoffs. B) It's not against the rules or the spirit of the rules. No existing rules are intended to enforce a minimum % of running plays. You're also wrong that I'm the cause of this trend in any meaningful way. People aren't trending towards the pass because I do it, they're trending towards the pass because the payoff is high. The reason for the payoff being high has nothing to do with me. That has much more to do with player attributes than anything else. Lee-Chargers wrote:We just have a fundamental difference in what we want our reality to be. Do we? I think we'd both like a PNFL where the payoffs for passing and running are roughly like that of the NFL. In such a PNFL, there would be no trend toward arena-league football. Where we seem to differ is that you seem to think that your personal tastes about what is realistic is more important than the rules. Instead of just saying that you'd prefer a PNFL where there was less passing you say that its wrong for me to pass as much as I do even though it's entirely within the rules and it's a perfectly rational strategy. If you want to argue for a minimum % of runs, fine. That's fine and if you get your way I will follow the rules. That's not the method I'd prefer, but it's entirely within your rights to support it. But don't confuse your personal preference with what is right and what is wrong.
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I take nothing away from Dean and his victory. Anybody can beat anybody. I am quite sure I have a ton of wins against teams who mailed it in because of real life. And Eric is right, I have won plenty of games by doing nothing except picking an old PPP and hoping it wins. A win is a win, no excuses, no crying. I'm just happy I stole the 2nd of the back to back!
Happy Holidays to All
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Time to weight in a little. Bottom line is the passing game is too efficient. Yes, the NFL has some teams being nearly as efficient, but we are even ahead of that. You are both correct, we are attempting to replicate the NFL and the stats are part of that. I'd rather find a way to create incentives to run more than legislate a %. I'm more conservation in my FBPRO views. I'd like to find a better solution. I'm going to run some things over the next week or two and see if it shows anything.
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